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General Category => General Harness Racing Discussion => Topic started by: 3 wide and wingin on December 11, 2013, 07:20:49 PM

Title: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 11, 2013, 07:20:49 PM
Race 5 on Tuesday was a 1,600$ purse.

With over 95,000$ bet into the wager pools ( WPS. exacta, trifecta)


I am sure most of you know al the back story.

But I don't.

Why and how is this happening?

Feel bad for the horsemen.

Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 11, 2013, 07:31:02 PM
Most of the money in the pool is from simulcasting dollars. The horsemen signed a deal for very low simulcast sharing dollars many years ago. The people I hold responsible for this….let's just say I have zero respect for to this day. Total lack of foresight and a sell out to Ohio horsemen, in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 11, 2013, 07:42:15 PM
Most of the money in the pool is from simulcasting dollars. The horsemen signed a deal for very low simulcast sharing dollars many years ago. The people I hold responsible for this….let's just say I have zero respect for to this day. Total lack of foresight and a sell out to Ohio horsemen, in my humble opinion.

When is the deal up?

Do they get anything from the simulcasting money at all?

Someone is making money that's for sure.

when the driver of a 5th place horse makes 4 dollars in a race with 95000$ in the pools its hard to believe.

When the pools are 65 times the purse would think it would be tempting to have lack of integrity for some.

I do not follow it enough to really know about that.

But it would always be in the back of my mind if I followed the track.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 11, 2013, 08:57:58 PM
When is the deal up?

Do they get anything from the simulcasting money at all?

Someone is making money that's for sure.

when the driver of a 5th place horse makes 4 dollars in a race with 95000$ in the pools its hard to believe.

When the pools are 65 times the purse would think it would be tempting to have lack of integrity for some.

I do not follow it enough to really know about that.

But it would always be in the back of my mind if I followed the track.
I believe the drivers get $15 minimum if the horse gets a check. They get a tiny percentage of simulcasting dollars, exactly what it is, I have forgotten. Someone else will have to answer when the deal is up-that is beyond my scope of knowledge.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 11, 2013, 09:00:45 PM
I believe the drivers get $15 minimum if the horse gets a check. They get a tiny percentage of simulcasting dollars, exactly what it is, I have forgotten. Someone else will have to answer when the deal is up-that is beyond my scope of knowledge.

Mine too.

Thanks for some info.

Its a weird situation.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: beans and weenies on December 12, 2013, 12:34:40 AM
 The horsemen got sold down the river for life  when they threatened to strike at Northfield years ago.  Wonderful horsemen representation caved in (secretly)  and sold out to management and it was put up,  shut up or get out.  I think the agreement might be up sometime in my lifetime but I'm getting old so maybe not.  shootme
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: badolpuddytat on December 12, 2013, 05:26:58 AM
I know that the TB's did not come to terms with mngmnt. at Thistledown this past year. They the horsemen, wouldn't allow Thistledown to send their signals to simulcasting outlets but Thistledown did bolster the purses because of their racino. (Not that people are breaking down the door betting Thistledown) Look at Beulah, their purses are like 3000.00 YIKES!!! Hell even I raced at NFLD 20 to 30 years ago and raced for MORE MONEY THAN THEY GET NOW!!!!
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: careless hal on December 12, 2013, 10:09:10 AM
It's a big problem here in IL also.  Only a minimal amount of the ADW go to the purse account, yet it accounts for the largest part of the handle.  I know when it first started obviously the tracks and horsemen didn't know what to expect.  Are these contracts eternal?  Unless the horsemen demand a reasonable cut, the sport is dead.  We all know those slot dollars will in time go away.  Where is the USTA?  One would think that unless all tracks and horsemen demand a fair share and  stick to it, we are screwed.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 12, 2013, 12:22:12 PM
It's a big problem here in IL also.  Only a minimal amount of the ADW go to the purse account, yet it accounts for the largest part of the handle.  I know when it first started obviously the tracks and horsemen didn't know what to expect.  Are these contracts eternal?  Unless the horsemen demand a reasonable cut, the sport is dead.  We all know those slot dollars will in time go away.  Where is the USTA?  One would think that unless all tracks and horsemen demand a fair share and  stick to it, we are screwed.


If I was a driver in a race where there is 80$ dollars total in the drivers (top 5) pay outs.
With  95,000$ wagered.

Id be unhappy.

You would think the track would not want this big a gap.
So they might put some money into the purse.

Im suprised the pools are so large.

If I bet the track a lot Id always be thinking about how little the drivers and horseman are making.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 12, 2013, 01:06:48 PM
Once again, the minimum the drivers get is $15 if the horse gets a check. That would put the total driver's money to well over $100 for the race....$105 to be exact.

 rflmao1 rflmao1
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 12, 2013, 02:34:43 PM
Once again, the minimum the drivers get is $15 if the horse gets a check. That would put the total driver's money to well over $100 for the race....$105 to be exact.

 rflmao1 rflmao1

Yes the 15 per is cool.

But that's not an incentive for trying to win.

so yes the winner of the race made 95. 80 bucks for the 5% plus 15?

The 5th place driver got 15 plus 4 dollars purse so he made 19$.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 12, 2013, 02:43:55 PM
No. The winning driver would get 5% of 50% of the purse-$40.
Second place=5% of 25% of the purse-$20. third-5th drivers would get $15. Total of $105 unless someone pays the drivers who drove so badly they didn't get the horse any money, or possibly someone tipped their driver.

The rule in Ohio is 5% or $15, whichever is more money. The driver is s.o.l. if the horse doesn't make money.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 03:26:32 PM
First off..........you're wrong............"a deal" has nothing to do with the simulcasting fees, they are negotiated between the sending and receiving tracks.......the horsemen get their % as mandated by the state code.  NOT contracts.

When simulcasting came into fruition nearly 20 years ago the Ohio horsemen had one of the best "deals" in the country and Northfield Park management took the ball and ran with it....they built a virtual simulcasting empire monopolizing the entire state.  The same simulcasting money used to support $10,000 purses...........it no longer does and the reason why is not because of a bad "deal" the horsemen's association made.  4pezz2

It's due to the changes in where your entertainment dollar goes now and the advent of internet wagering.

It amazes me how often I can explain this and yet the OHHA continues to get thrown under the bus.........I've got no problem with criticism but I prefer it be based in fact.

Just like I hear over and over again......"We don't get any money from the last two races of the night."  shootme........it's the same NO matter what race it is!

The reason Raceway Park would not sign a contract and we went on strike 17 years ago was mainly based upon the horsemen's % of the simulcasting and live handle handle, now you all are on here saying it was a bad deal?  rflmao1 rflmao1


All the Ohio tracks are going to be paying between 11% and 9% on the VLTs when all is said and done based up the amount of money spent on their plants...........which is right in with the national average.............yet I guarantee when the slot money dries up in about 10 years it will be the OHHA who gets blamed for cutting a bad "deal".........in the mean time millions of dollars will STILL be wagered on line and with out proper tax representation.

And I hope I am dead wrong about the last sentence.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 12, 2013, 03:31:18 PM
So you're saying the OHHA made a good deal on simulcasting?  slaphead noway
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 03:31:40 PM
It's a big problem here in IL also.  Only a minimal amount of the ADW go to the purse account, yet it accounts for the largest part of the handle.  I know when it first started obviously the tracks and horsemen didn't know what to expect.  Are these contracts eternal?  Unless the horsemen demand a reasonable cut, the sport is dead.  We all know those slot dollars will in time go away.  Where is the USTA?  One would think that unless all tracks and horsemen demand a fair share and  stick to it, we are screwed.

You made a very good point about ADW (Advanced deposit wagering), when they started 99% of the world had no clue what the interent even was!

Ohio horsemen contracts were all 10 years but AGAIN let me point out, the simulcasting money is in the state code NOT contracts! And if anyone thinks a change of state code is an easy thing to do........think again.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 03:33:35 PM
So you're saying the OHHA made a good deal on simulcasting?  slaphead noway


GARY!  The OHHA nor the tracks made a deal over the simulcasting!   4pezz2 4pezz2

And further more, when you were here 15 years ago was ANYONE bitching about it?  And why not?
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 03:36:30 PM
Then please explain why the horsemen at Raceway Park went on strike while the horsemen at Northfield Park who ALSO did not have a contract at the time did not feel the need to.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 03:47:22 PM
Simulcasting signals are bought and sold between the tracks..........Ohio State code mandates the tracks and horsemen split evenly the %.

I think Gisser could explain this better than me but lets take The Meadowlands................I think it used to be and currently might still be the highest % and DO NOT quote me on the number but lets say it is 6%...........2% to the Meadowlands with the horsemen and Northfield splitting 4% with a .0 something going to the track as an admin fee.

The reason Northfield WANTS such a large simulcasting base is because the horsemen have a much higher % on our live wagering...........but when the live handle dropped, PURSES dropped.

Northfield purses have NEVER been able to sustain themselves on the live handle, they've always subsisted off the state simulcasting pool.

They race 200+ days with with 14 races a day..................we're currently over $1million in the hole...............the track has carried it with the promise of VLT money...........with out it, we'd be doomed.............continuing to rely upon it...........we're destined to be doomed.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 12, 2013, 03:59:40 PM

GARY!  The OHHA nor the tracks made a deal over the simulcasting!   4pezz2 4pezz2

And further more, when you were here 15 years ago was ANYONE bitching about it?  And why not?
I was long gone even 20 years ago. I left in 1991.

But wait a minute-who agreed to the extremely small share from simulcasting? If the tracks did not agree and the OHHa did not agree, who made the agreement with whom? And if the OHHA was not involved, why not?
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 04:04:44 PM
20 + years ago and many politicians after....it was legislated................and at that time it was right on par with the rest of the nation.

The problem is not the simulcasting %.......the problem is the industry as a whole and the lack of on-track wagering handle.

Ohio isn't alone on this issue...........what horsemen ANYWHERE are thriving on their simulcasting revenue?!
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 04:06:42 PM
Indiana.....slots...........Michigan, dead................Pa, slots..............Illinois?......I think it has already been pointed out they are not making it on simulcasting.....New York, slots.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 12, 2013, 04:40:08 PM
I will agree about slot revenue holding up the sport by a thread. I also think your ten year prediction is fairly optimistic.

Tracks simply have to get the customer to bet the product, and I don't see it happening. When the idiots on the Ohio Racing Commission worry more about drivers leaning back and "kicking" horses than they do about hidden ownership, beard trainers, and loading horses to the gills, you know the light at the end of the tunnel is quickly growing dimmer.

They simply must protect the public wagering dollar! Frankly I do not think they even care.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 12, 2013, 04:44:52 PM
I think we need federal intervention to get a fair shake from internet wagering...........unfortunately I think the feds have bigger fish to fry.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 12, 2013, 05:00:02 PM
Federal intervention is a great idea. Look how wonderfully they handle marijuana, healthcare, the post office, social security, medicare, the deficit, etc, etc.

 rflmao1 rflmao1 rflmao1

Libertarians don't like the federal government getting involved in anything.

Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: Jeremy on December 12, 2013, 05:58:10 PM
Tracks all need to lower the takeout and charge more for their signal.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 12, 2013, 06:00:09 PM
I didn't mean to rattle your cage Amy.


I still don't understand fully though why Northfield of all the tracks seems to be the one with the biggest disparity.

For instance RCR races go for between 4500-10000.
With the pools ( total)  for most races falling somewhere in the same region.

I guess I have a learning disability though!

Feel bad for the horseman running there.

SOMEONE is making a lot of money.
It isn't the horsemen.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 12, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
Tracks all need to lower the takeout and charge more for their signal.

10% take out every bet every track in America.

Would be a big bounce for all involved.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: Jeremy on December 12, 2013, 06:19:19 PM
I didn't mean to rattle your cage Amy.


I still don't understand fully though why Northfield of all the tracks seems to be the one with the biggest disparity.

For instance RCR races go for between 4500-10000.
With the pools ( total)  for most races falling somewhere in the same region.

I guess I have a learning disability though!

Feel bad for the horseman running there.

SOMEONE is making a lot of money.
It isn't the horsemen.

They race a lot of days.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 12, 2013, 06:34:46 PM
They race a lot of days.

That's true.

54 days here at Rosecroft. If it was 254 purses would be 20% of what they are.

The horseman here don't want to race anymore days and wont negotiate a deal for more.

the horseman want more days there?
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: LVGaryD on December 12, 2013, 06:43:15 PM
I actually think I am the one who rattled Amy's cage. I love Amy, and I certainly know what buttons to push.

She knows I have absolutely zero respect for a certain person in Ohio and for some reason, she happens to like the guy. I'm thinking she just hasn't known the snake long enough.  ;D
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: badolpuddytat on December 12, 2013, 07:13:00 PM
They race a lot of days.
Years ago NFLD used to close a couple of months a year and the horsemen went to different venues. The cheaper stock usually went to Raceway and the better stock to the Meadows. At the time the Meadows would race double headers on Sat. Then also race on sundays too. There were plenty of races to get your horses in at the Meadows.
 
I do know that the horsemen at Thistledown wanted the 11% and the Thistledown's MNGMNT would only give them the 9 % of the VLT's. The horsemen with-held the Thistledown signal from going across the nation because they want to get that 11% of the VLT's.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: beans and weenies on December 12, 2013, 07:48:41 PM
I actually think I am the one who rattled Amy's cage. I love Amy, and I certainly know what buttons to push.

She knows I have absolutely zero respect for a certain person in Ohio and for some reason, she happens to like the guy. I'm thinking she just hasn't known the snake long enough.  ;D

    ;)
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: beans and weenies on December 12, 2013, 07:51:41 PM
I still think there is a fox in the hen house and I haven't been convinced otherwise and doubt if I ever will.  The numbers do not add up to me I don't care what kind of deals were made or not made.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: Jeremy on December 12, 2013, 07:57:38 PM

She knows I have absolutely zero respect for a certain person in Ohio and for some reason, she happens to like the guy.

I bring cheesecakes to her house from time to time if that helps you understand why.
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: Wilderness on December 12, 2013, 09:16:47 PM

GARY!  The OHHA nor the tracks made a deal over the simulcasting!   4pezz2 4pezz2

And further more, when you were here 15 years ago was ANYONE bitching about it?  And why not?

Amy,
      I read the beginning of this thread and without reading the rest completely, I'm making a comment in the middle.

 Your recollection is incorrect, however you are also correct.

Northfield Park did make a deal.

There are two dollar figures to consider when attempting to add up the dollars.

1) One is the revenue from the wagered dollars, which is different for simulcast and live-on-track. The splits between horsemen's org and the tracks (along with other orgs (state, city, etc)) are defined by law.

 On that point you are correct.

2) The signal fee and it's revenue goes to the track alone (Jeff Gural and company raised the price of the signal fee immediately upon taking possession of The Meadowlands).
 The horsemen get no part of that.

 Northfield Park reduced their signal fee (my recollection is to 1.5%) some years ago to promote other tracks to simulcast their feed.
 Initially this was done just on Monday's and Tuesdays, however once Northfield Park saw the success of this 1.5% it was expanded to other days.

 The tracks are NOT required to reveal these signal fees and many other negotiated fees that were for decades public information, thus it's nearly impossible to make a logical guess on a tracks profitability as it was decades ago.



 
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: Wilderness on December 12, 2013, 09:37:18 PM
This is what I get for not reading the entire thread.

Amy said basically the same thing as I in her very first reply (http://inthesulky.com/index.php?topic=3799.msg31765#msg31765)
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: careless hal on December 13, 2013, 05:41:27 AM
You can argue the details of the screwing all you want, the horsemen are still getting screwed.  They are putting on the show and everyone else is profiting far more than them.  Would Justin Bieber agree to do a performance for 1-2% of the gate receipts?  When tracks are getting slot money, I guess it doesn't make any difference. As for me, the hell with the horses.  I'm going to open a gas station here in Illinois and put slots in it.  I'll also offer car detailing, so customers can play the slots while waiting for their car to be done.  They also can get their lottery tickets there.  You see, we can't have slots at the tracks because that would be an expansion of gambling.

Hal's Gas N'Slots- get your fill of both here!
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: AmyHollar on December 13, 2013, 09:56:37 AM
I didn't mean to rattle your cage Amy.


I still don't understand fully though why Northfield of all the tracks seems to be the one with the biggest disparity.

For instance RCR races go for between 4500-10000.
With the pools ( total)  for most races falling somewhere in the same region.

I guess I have a learning disability though!

Feel bad for the horseman running there.

SOMEONE is making a lot of money.
It isn't the horsemen.
.  Does Rosecroft race 214 days 14 races a day ?
Title: Re: Question about Northfield purse vs handle
Post by: 3 wide and wingin on December 13, 2013, 11:09:20 AM
.  Does Rosecroft race 214 days 14 races a day ?

54 and 12.

The horseman here want no more.

Because purses would suffer.

Ocean downs is open in the summer too if you want to include that.

So its like 80 some days a year in Maryland.
Its enough.


The horseman want the 214 days and 14 races?
Or management wants it?