Big M success of Ron Burke fact/fiction/chemically enhanced

[JuiceJunkies]

After a weekend and generally a meet in which Ron Burke seemed untouchable many around the various off track wagering facilities and racetracks from coast to coast are buzzing.

What is the general consensus here of this massive display of authoritarianism?
Is Ron the greatest trainer since Haughton or Dancer?
Will any other trainer be able to make a stand or will Ron be a run away?
The critics attacked Pena who's success was remarkably similar, they are now talking about Mr. Burke now.  Can he handle the heat?

Discuss.

[Jeremy]

He has the greatest numbers in regards to amount of horses.

His $$$ numbers are going to look even better when you consider he trains a lot great horses past the age of 3... where they can make up around 20% of his purse winnings because the best competition doesn't always stick around.

I don't get what you mean that he will be a run away.

His UTRS is not even in the top 50.

Also Yannick's UDRS is .433 vs .370 UTRS for Burke.  Looks like his main driver is winning with everyone.

Another main driver David Palone is .378

[LVGaryD]

Ron Burke is without a doubt a genius. He'd have been successful in whatever endeavor he chose as his profession.

The entire Burke family are the hardest working people I've ever known. As long as I am in Nevada dealing cards, Ronnie will remain atop the list as the leading trainer. When and if I decide to sober up and return to training horses, he will be the second best trainer in the business.

 

[Danville]

After a weekend and generally a meet in which Ron Burke seemed untouchable many around the various off track wagering facilities and racetracks from coast to coast are buzzing.
What is the general consensus here of this massive display of authoritarianism?
Is Ron the greatest trainer since Haughton or Dancer?
Will any other trainer be able to make a stand or will Ron be a run away?
The critics attacked Pena who's success was remarkably similar, they are now talking about Mr. Burke now.  Can he handle the heat?
Discuss.

Who are the "they" you speak of ?? Do "they" have any history of training success at the elite (Grand Circuit) level by which "they" can judge others??
Burke may well be the next Haughton or Dancer but only extended success will provide a basis for that status,
Has he (Burke) been able to take a 15 claimer with a LTM of 1:55 and turn him into a sub 1:50 pacing monster inside of a weeks time ??
Last but not least, this seems to be your main purpose in life i.e. making totally unsubstansiated claims regarding various people who's entire life is tied up in the sport. These people have had no and I repeat NO cases brought forward that would be considered so serious that their reputation or livelyhood would be injured, yet you persist. Why and what is YOUR motive??  Don't even try the old "for the betterment of the sport" crap!!!

[Jeremy]

Who are the "they" you speak of ?? Do "they" have any history of training success at the elite (Grand Circuit) level by which "they" can judge others??
Burke may well be the next Haughton or Dancer but only extended success will provide a basis for that status,
Has he (Burke) been able to take a 15 claimer with a LTM of 1:55 and turn him into a sub 1:50 pacing monster inside of a weeks time ??
Last but not least, this seems to be your main purpose in life i.e. making totally unsubstansiated claims regarding various people who's entire life is tied up in the sport. These people have had no and I repeat NO cases brought forward that would be considered so serious that their reputation or livelyhood would be injured, yet you persist. Why and what is YOUR motive??  Don't even try the old "for the betterment of the sport" crap!!!

Nicely said.

[Just Saying]

I met Ron Burke during Jug Week once about 3 years ago. I didn't know who he was and he didn't know who I was. He was very pleasant to me, but never lost track of what needed to be done. Checking equipment, taking temperatures, overseeing the care of his horses... making sure that every I was dotted, and every T was crossed. His success is very much influenced by his hard work and attention to detail. I always notice in still photos of his horses that they are perfectly "hung-up". Each foot hits the ground level and efficient, and the horses' stride is fully extended... and all are well conditioned. You don't get that out of a syringe.

[JuiceJunkies]

The folks I was speaking off were some of the fellas who have seen a million races.    No one who has the history of training elite horses.   So by your standards I suppose they cannot judge others.   But does a civil or criminal court magistrate have success at being a thief, murderer, or any other type of career criminal?

If the 15 claimer with a 55 mark to sub 50 is a Pena reference, I must have missed that one.   I know he chopped time of many a claimer but never from 55 to sub 50.   Please elaborate.

As for who I bring up, the majority are the big topics or the ones I am directly familiar with.   Many have brought up Pena and for the most part I have strayed from those discussions except early on, once the misguided nonsense started I was out.   Pena like Ron Burke has not had any cases so serious that his reputation should be destroyed yet it has been.   

My motive is discussion and an attempt to clarify and understand my fellow posters, whether horse person or gambler.  If 7 out of 10 people I encountered today and discussed yesterday's evenings big M card could only talk about Burke then obviously I would figure that the online posters would be willing to discuss it as well.

Of the folks I talked to some said he was genius, some said he was a criminal, and others said they just had to scratch there heads and wonder how he does it.   This is evident on all the forums not just in my personal contacts.

I did not give an opinion and many times on topics like this I hold my opinion and let the forum do the discussion.   

I am not pointing fingers at anyone or using any derogatory comments.   I am simply trying to get a feel on where we are and where we are going.

Clamming up about these topics is what has cast a shadow on what when I was growing up was a prominent game.   Had we talked about it, put things in the limelight, and if they were wrong corrected them, the game would surely be thriving today.

Who are the "they" you speak of ?? Do "they" have any history of training success at the elite (Grand Circuit) level by which "they" can judge others??
Burke may well be the next Haughton or Dancer but only extended success will provide a basis for that status,
Has he (Burke) been able to take a 15 claimer with a LTM of 1:55 and turn him into a sub 1:50 pacing monster inside of a weeks time ??
Last but not least, this seems to be your main purpose in life i.e. making totally unsubstansiated claims regarding various people who's entire life is tied up in the sport. These people have had no and I repeat NO cases brought forward that would be considered so serious that their reputation or livelyhood would be injured, yet you persist. Why and what is YOUR motive??  Don't even try the old "for the betterment of the sport" crap!!!

[AmyHollar]

He has great hair.  I bet he doesn't use Suave.

[Just Saying]

He has great hair.  I bet he doesn't use Suave.

I heard he was once caught drinking water in the paddock.

[Mr. B]

JJ, if you are looking for someone to say a disparaging word about Burke, you are on the wrong board.   

[careless hal]

JJ, if you are looking for someone to say a disparaging word about Burke, you are on the wrong board.   

I think what Juice Junkies has said is true.  Not that Burke stable is cheating, but that the sport is abuzz with people who think he is.  Of the many harness lists and forums I belong to, there are plenty voicing that opinion. I know that he is a member here and many know him or have met him.  As for myself, I will take their opinion that he is not.  One thing that many are saying is "What if Pena had a night like that, people would be screaming to high heaven"  We can claim that all the critics are disgruntled bettors or crackpots, but that is not the case.  Whether we like it or not, the sad truth is that when anyone has a lot of success in this sport, the changes of chemical enhancement start flying.   That is what it has come to and this mindset can only hurt the sport.

[AmyHollar]

Can hurt the sport?  HAS hurt the sport.

And, I'm sorry but I lay a great deal of the blame on horsemen themselves for perpetuating the witch hunts.

[beans and weenies]

I think what Juice Junkies has said is true.  Not that Burke stable is cheating, but that the sport is abuzz with people who think he is.  Of the many harness lists and forums I belong to, there are plenty voicing that opinion. I know that he is a member here and many know him or have met him.  As for myself, I will take their opinion that he is not.  One thing that many are saying is "What if Pena had a night like that, people would be screaming to high heaven"  We can claim that all the critics are disgruntled bettors or crackpots, but that is not the case.  Whether we like it or not, the sad truth is that when anyone has a lot of success in this sport, the changes of chemical enhancement start flying.   That is what it has come to and this mindset can only hurt the sport.

It is the nature of the beast in our business.  Whenever anyone shows up year after year and is as successful as the Burke Brigade. rumors fly and tongues wag.  Please consider the times we live in.  the instant access to far flung places via cell phones and computers. voice,  pictures, video via phone instantly  allows trainers to be in far flung places from thier home base in seconds. put that in the equation with  intelligent hands on  horse knowledge you have a well oiled machine like the Burke Brigade.  Burke is not the only man out their having success. He has a large inventory of horseflesh because that is what he wants.  Other trainers doing the same thing are just as successful with smaller numbers. If you get luckey and sell a horse for some serious cash you upgrade the inventory and hope to keep the snowball going. and........................I think Pena has been  screwed big time and trying to use ghost trainers was not smart.  He has the horse knowledge but not the business smarts to control large numbers of horses. 
There .  that's my $5 bucks worth this am.  Have a good day. 

[beans and weenies]

Can hurt the sport?  HAS hurt the sport.

And, I'm sorry but I lay a great deal of the blame on horsemen themselves for perpetuating the witch hunts.

Horsemen have shot themselves in the foot for years and years.  Nowadays via internet it  is just quicker, easier, and worldwide.  not just the local cafe or bar anymore.   global bullshit instantly.   

[sallyjo]

 The Burkes are smart they have great help, great owners, they buy good stock.  A great Family doesn't hurt, they are all team players!
Go Burke!!!