In The Sulky Forum
General Category => General Harness Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Elgin on March 29, 2012, 08:43:15 PM
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Coleman Horses Not Allowed to Race at the
Meadowlands
By Bill Finley
Horses listed under the name
of trainer Andrew Harris are not
being allowed to enter at the
Meadowlands, Harness Racing
Update has learned. Harris is
fronting for trainer Casie
Coleman, who is serving a 45-
day suspension for a positive
test for the banned drug
Ephedrine. With Coleman
sidelined, her horses are racing
under Harris
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Actually this is a good thing. thumbsup
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I totally agree with Mr. Gural on this issue. As I've said for years, suspend the horse along with the trainer. However, in this case, I think Casie is getting the shaft. One cannot control what their employees or others give the horses.
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I totally agree with Mr. Gural on this issue. As I've said for years, suspend the horse along with the trainer.
agreed.
However, in this case, I think Casie is getting the shaft. One cannot control what their employees or others give the horses.
WEG tried every known posture to entrap Casie and found nothing, and over a very long period of time.
One infraction of weight and Casie is penalized in multiple jurisdictions seems unfair.
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She's had two positives lately hasn't she?
Also was nailed at the Red Mile years back on Banamine.
She has been using "something" for years Wilderness and that's coming from people who have worked for her and knowing the woman personally. She used the same path that Pena did, years ahead of him... Only she got out of claimers and more into young horses. She hasn't trained or sat behind one of her current horses in months.
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She's had two positives lately hasn't she?
Also was nailed at the Red Mile years back on Banamine.
She has been using "something" for years Wilderness and that's coming from people who have worked for her and knowing the woman personally. She used the same path that Pena did, years ahead of him... Only she got out of claimers and more into young horses. She hasn't trained or sat behind one of her current horses in months.
But these positives were ephedrine. No one would use ephedrine on a horse that is in to race-that's just plain stupid....sort of like using morphine. Gene Riegle got a positive for morphine many years ago and every one of us knew he would never give that stuff to a horse. I believe his suspension ended up being 30 days in the winter when he never raced any way. Of course this was back when people were not loading horses with everything but the kitchen sink too.
Banamine is something nearly everyone gave horses 20-24 hours out from the race thirty years ago. All it is is a mild muscle relaxant and analgesic that actually should be legal to give on race day. To me banamine is the equivalent of ibuprofen/tylenol mixture I take for my daily aches and pains. There is zero narcotic effect in banamine.
While I applaud Gural banning her from racing while under suspension, these two kinds of positives are not the kind that warrant such a suspension in my opinion.
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Fair enough. What about when she was doing the Pena and claiming 12 k horses and dropping life marks on 7-8 year olds? Soul Chaser and Red Pop are just two that come to mind. Every horse was hung up the same way and pacing out of it's skin... She was Pena before there was Pena. She was smart enough to tone it down and focus more on babies though after she was established. Look at her old man.. Phil had 2 good horses his entire career in Western Canada, and was a .170 trainer for a lifetime. Goes to Ontario and magically he's .310? I know these people, you're not convincing me they aren't using.
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Fair enough. What about when she was doing the Pena and claiming 12 k horses and dropping life marks on 7-8 year olds? Soul Chaser and Red Pop are just two that come to mind. Every horse was hung up the same way and pacing out of it's skin... She was Pena before there was Pena. She was smart enough to tone it down and focus more on babies though after she was established. Look at her old man.. Phil had 2 good horses his entire career in Western Canada, and was a .170 trainer for a lifetime. Goes to Ontario and magically he's .310? I know these people, you're not convincing me they aren't using.
I don't know if or what they might be using. And if thet get caught, in my opinion they deserve the horse racing death penalty-lifetime banning. But it needs to be reserved for something that is obviously of a more serious nature than banamine.
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I don't know if or what they might be using. And if thet get caught, in my opinion they deserve the horse racing death penalty-lifetime banning. But it needs to be reserved for something that is obviously of a more serious nature than banamine.
thumbsup
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4pezz2 4pezz2 4pezz2 4pezz2
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4pezz2 4pezz2 4pezz2 4pezz2
idunno me too 4pezz2
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Coleman
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I have a bit of a problem on banning these horses. Those that are (or were recently) owned in whole or part by Coleman should be barred. If she sold them after the suspension was announced, for instance. Horses that are and were wholly owned by others should be allowed to race, either under Harris (who needs to learn the claiming rules) or others.
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For me, it's simple. Ban the horse for as long as the trainer. This eliminates beards, ect.....case closed.
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This has always big quandery for me. I hate racing against chemists and wouldn't mind if they lifetime bans. But there so many variables, like:
a. A trainer gets sabotaged by somebody else. It's the easiest thing in the world... walk thru the barn and drop a little treated grain in the horse's feed tub. Bingo, a positive.
b. Today's testing procedures can detect nano-grams of chemicals that could not possibly affect a horses performance, that might have been administered weeks before the race.
c. Big operations that may have up to 200 head. The trainer cannot possibly watch every single person that works for him/her 24/7/365. And people DO make mistakes without being dishonest. Especially now, with the language barrier.
A very good trainer friend told one of the amigos to take "horse X" to the paddock for the 4hr security time. When the identifier checked the tattoo before the race it was the wrong horse and too late for the proper one to be allowed to race. Horse scratched, and a big fine,(justifiable penalty) but the trainer would have never tried to stick a cheap claimer in this nice stake race. His correct horse had a pretty good shot.
It gets really complicated, and it would be SO much easier if there was an industry-wide standard of rules. I haul one 32 miles and I'm in a different state with different rules.
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For me, it's simple. Ban the horse for as long as the trainer. This eliminates beards, ect.....case closed.
And will send horses to the killers.............or totally ruin their racing careers.
Not very fair for the horse.
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Every time it is mentioned about banning the horse along with the trainer my stomach gets upset.
Several months ago I posted this..........I think it should be posted daily on EVERY horse racing blog.
http://www.arci.com/Racing_Commissioners_International/Drugs_%26_Racing.html
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For me, it's simple. Ban the horse for as long as the trainer. This eliminates beards, ect.....case closed.
It also eliminates due process to me as an owner. I do not see why an owner should be punished for a trainer's misdeeds, whether intentional or not, with a different horse.
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I disagree. If an owner of mine knows I am juicing his horses, makes a lot of money while doing so, the owner also bears responsibility.
We had a gas man at Northfield many years ago. Many old time owners were begging this guy to take their horses. These were the same owners who sat in the clubhouse screaming for this guy's head on a platter. It was funny as hell, yet they begged the guy to train for them. 4pezz2
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Every time it is mentioned about banning the horse along with the trainer my stomach gets upset.
Several months ago I posted this..........I think it should be posted daily on EVERY horse racing blog.
http://www.arci.com/Racing_Commissioners_International/Drugs_%26_Racing.html
Wow! 15 thousandths of 1% positive. That surprises me, and also makes me happy.
I wish I had a simple answer about barring the horse, but I don't. Sometimes I think: Well... if an owner gets barred from some huge stakes because he went with a known 'juicer' trainer just for the money and it bites him in the ass, good enough for him... take your horses to a trainer that won't get your horse barred. Then I think about when they had the debacle of the faulty black box (Pa?) or the big mess at The Red Mile where the jurisdiction was wrong and busted a trainer, and the tests turned out to be negative.
But the practice of crooks signing off ownership of horses to each other to keep them eligible is horrible too. It gets complicated for sure.
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And will send horses to the killers.............or totally ruin their racing careers.
Not very fair for the horse.
People send horses to the killers, not rules. Drugs do far more to ruin careers than setting on the sidelines does.
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It also eliminates due process to me as an owner. I do not see why an owner should be punished for a trainer's misdeeds, whether intentional or not, with a different horse.
Who said anything about a different horse? Suspend the horse along with the trainer..Just the one horse, not your whole string. Now you still need to find another trainer under current rules, correct? Good thing beards are allowed it sound like, huh?
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BB-Did you not read the RCI study posted?
What do you think these horse which are let down from training should do?
Do you have any idea how hard it would be to bring a horse back after months of being off?
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What's so hard about bringing one back after six months off? Field for two and a half months, or so, back ready in three months or so.
I've long been in favor of suspending the horse as well. idunno
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Really Gary? noway
One-Sure some it is easy on.......I think the younger the better.........older horses........I really think 6 months off would be tough on them........let's say you have a 30 day suspension on a three year old stake horse........and it's July...........how much time is that penalty ACTUALLY costing the horse?
Two-Realistically........is it going to happen? Are most owners going to pay the bills on a horse to stand in the field for months?
Three-Your scenario of years ago a trainer getting horses because of his "juicing" abilities are long gone..........LONG GONE...........the evidence is clear........the "juicers" are caught.......the "juicers" are rare.
Four-Owners are penalized.......they return purse money.
Five-I think JS said it earlier.........sabotage..........no matter what, there are sick ass holes in ever aspect of society...........we can't all live in our barns.
Six-Horses don't "juice" themselves, people do.
Seven-The Buckeyes lost............and I need another drink. >:(
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What's so hard about bringing one back after six months off? Field for two and a half months, or so, back ready in three months or so.
I've long been in favor of suspending the horse as well. idunno
You'd have to have a time-cap. You shouldn't give a horse 'life' because the trainer got 'life'. It can be a can of worms, but I would like to see a penalty that puts an end to the dishonest trainers. I suppose if owners started getting their stakes colts put on the shelf during the big money stakes they might shun the trainers that caused their loss.
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The responsible party should get the punishment. Punishing the horse is guilt by assiociation. I guess in our headlong march to one worldism and all out socialism many think this is ok. What would Muslim law say on this---Off with their heads? Owners depend on the authorities to enforce the rules fairly. If you listen to every rumor around the track and take it as the gospel truth, I have some swamp land to sell you in Florida.
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The responsible party should get the punishment. Punishing the horse is guilt by assiociation. I guess in our headlong march to one worldism and all out socialism many think this is ok. What would Muslim law say on this---Off with their heads? Owners depend on the authorities to enforce the rules fairly. If you listen to every rumor around the track and take it as the gospel truth, I have some swamp land to sell you in Florida.
Amen to you CH this beautiful Sunday morning. thumbsup
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BB-Did you not read the RCI study posted?
What do you think these horse which are let down from training should do?
Do you have any idea how hard it would be to bring a horse back after months of being off?
A horse just won the richest race in the world after 1 (ONE) start in a whole year, at a grueling distance against the best. In fact his previous start was the same race. Kinda runs that theory down a tad I would say. Furthermore we don't need to be in this arena if we run a clean game, now do we?
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Rumors at a racetrack? Surely not... rflmao1 rflmao1 rflmao1
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A horse just won the richest race in the world after 1 (ONE) start in a whole year, at a grueling distance against the best. In fact his previous start was the same race. Kinda runs that theory down a tad I would say.
No.
Was he standing in the field not doing anything as a horse which is on suspension is supposed to do? After all if the trainer can not train neither can the horse.....or the purpose is defeated.
Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds may all have four legs but are not the same type of beast.
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The responsible party should get the punishment. Punishing the horse is guilt by assiociation. I guess in our headlong march to one worldism and all out socialism many think this is ok. What would Muslim law say on this---Off with their heads? Owners depend on the authorities to enforce the rules fairly. If you listen to every rumor around the track and take it as the gospel truth, I have some swamp land to sell you in Florida.
thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
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No.
Was he standing in the field not doing anything as a horse which is on suspension is supposed to do? After all if the trainer can not train neither can the horse.....or the purpose is defeated.
Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds may all have four legs but are not the same type of beast.
Where in the rules does it state a horse cannot train? C'mon. If we debate issues, be informed.
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Where in the rules does it state a horse cannot train? C'mon. If we debate issues, be informed.
rflmao1 rflmao1
If the trainer is on suspension.......the TRAINER is to have NOTHING to do with training......which is why certain jurisdictions have brought sanctions upon trainers CAUGHT training horses while on suspension.
So, IF you want to horse suspended it will NOT be training............giving the horse to another trainer to keep it race ready is once again defeating the purpose.........correct?
And your smart-ass remark was uncalled for..........I'm perfectly capable of debating an issue with out an attitude..........if you are incapable then the debate stops and your points lose validation.
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rflmao1 rflmao1
If the trainer is on suspension.......the TRAINER is to have NOTHING to do with training......which is why certain jurisdictions have brought sanctions upon trainers CAUGHT training horses while on suspension.
So, IF you want to horse suspended it will NOT be training............giving the horse to another trainer to keep it race ready is once again defeating the purpose.........correct?
And your smart-ass remark was uncalled for..........I'm perfectly capable of debating an issue with out an attitude..........if you are incapable then the debate stops and your points lose validation.
When a horse is suspended, he cannot race. Check current WEG rules...An approved trainer may take over training duties. NO racing however.....bet you got a problem with this as well? Sorry you are so thin skinned. No reply please. It would only be more of the same.
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Why? Can't you handle my replies...........nothing on me is thin.
I live in the United States.........where did you mention you were referring to WEG rules? idunno
Horses have been suspended in the states(Michigan I know of).........they were not allowed to change ownership or trainers.........hence, horse was shelved.
In Ohio when a trainer is suspended.....the horse may change ownership and trainers with permission of the OSRC.........and is often required to stable in a 24 hour detention area prior to racing.
And the worse thing you can recommend me doing.........is shutting up. dorkusinterruptus
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Why? Can't you handle my replies...........nothing on me is thin.
I live in the United States.........where did you mention you were referring to WEG rules? idunno
Horses have been suspended in the states(Michigan I know of).........they were not allowed to change ownership or trainers.........hence, horse was shelved.
In Ohio when a trainer is suspended.....the horse may change ownership and trainers with permission of the OSRC.........and is often required to stable in a 24 hour detention area prior to racing.
And the worse thing you can recommend me doing.........is shutting up. dorkusinterruptus
rflmao1 rflmao1
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I have no problem with shelving a horse until the drug is out of the system... but it seems like most drugs are out the system before the tests results are in.
I think Keith is saying he doesn't want his horses to be disallowed if the trainer got caught with another trainers horse. Which would come into play if the trainer can't transfer his horses to someone else.
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Why? Can't you handle my replies...........nothing on me is thin.
Great line! rflmao1 rflmao1 rflmao1
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