In The Sulky Forum
General Category => General Harness Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Brush and Crush on December 01, 2011, 01:16:33 PM
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Thursday, December 01, 2011 - by Lee Park, director of communications, New York State Racing and Wagering Board
Schenectady, NY --- The New York State Racing and Wagering Board has issued fines and suspensions to 16 individuals who were found to be responsible for Oxymetazoline violations at Yonkers Raceway, Monticello Raceway and Saratoga Casino and Raceway. One trainer
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We will continue to employ resources to be one step ahead of those who try to cheat in the sport of horse racing in New York state.
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So interesting names on that list!!! Now who will the Kesmodel horses go to with Campbell getting suspended??
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:o
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We will continue to employ resources to be one step ahead of those who try to cheat in the sport of horse racing in New York state.
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Old Gary D has a trainer's license for rent. $500,000 for one and a half years, plus another $1 million cash deposit they will lose if I get a positive test.
Nobody in Nevada can or ever could train a horse like old Gary D. can laddies. Nobody! dorkusinterruptus
rflmao1 rflmao1
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Old Gary D has a trainer's license for rent. $500,000 for one and a half years, plus another $1 million cash deposit they will lose if I get a positive test.
Nobody in Nevada can or ever could train a horse like old Gary D. can laddies. Nobody! dorkusinterruptus
rflmao1 rflmao1
BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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We will continue to employ resources to be one step ahead of those who try to cheat in the sport of horse racing in New York state.
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Before the big ole congratulatory back slapping occurs, I'd like to know the horseman's story..........I know this shocks you.
What is the class? 3? I can't find it.
I take it, it is a nasal spray............we used to use a special mask to administer nasal sprays all the time, especially for allergies..........were these horses under a veterinarian care and the withdraw time got screwed up?
Who really thinks making such a big "hip-hip-horay-we-got-the-bad-guys" public announcement is actually helping the sport?
Anyone reading this use any kind of nasal spray this week then go to work? Did you feel like a cheater?
Perspectives in this industry are totally slanted.
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Who really thinks making such a big "hip-hip-horay-we-got-the-bad-guys" public announcement is actually helping the sport?
Of course it doesn't help the sport. But what hurts more is cheating in the first place. Are we to be mad at the fact that they got caught? If you see a headline that says "Police catch buglar", would your reaction be "Damn Police, they are giving our city a bad name" Sure, we all know at times it can be a timing thing and maybe some animals take longer then normal for the drugs to clear their system. However, as pointed out, most are multiple offenders with a long rap sheet.
...is that 'one step ahead' or 9 months behind? idunno
That is fast for any government agency!!!
hal,
you don't honestly believe that PR horse s-h-i-t?
Of course not, but it is a start to be only a few steps behind the cheaters.
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Who really thinks making such a big "hip-hip-horay-we-got-the-bad-guys" public announcement is actually helping the sport?
Of course it doesn't help the sport. But what hurts more is cheating in the first place. Are we to be mad at the fact that they got caught? If you see a headline that says "Police catch buglar", would your reaction be "Damn Police, they are giving our city a bad name" Sure, we all know at times it can be a timing thing and maybe some animals take longer then normal for the drugs to clear their system. However, as pointed out, most are multiple offenders with a long rap sheet.
Sorry Hal........I see no correlation between robbing someone of personal belongs and a trainer treating a horse.........this wasn't a stimulant.
Show me these long rap sheets and I'll show you where about 99% of them shouldn't even be public knowledge.
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What are the long term side effects of giving Oxymetazoline to horses? I know it is against the rules and people should be punished for breaking the rules but I don't understand why it would be against the rules.
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They don't know.......the racing commission is too busy cheering themselves over their big drug bust that is saving the industry.
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I am curious if this was in another state ( Pa, Nj etc) what the penalty would be? Cause as we all know, every state is different and IMO, that is the problem. Sure seems pretty severe to me to get 6 months to 2 years for nasal spray.
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We routinely stuck Vicks in horses noses in the paddock and rubbed them with dmso and
Cortisone. Now even that is not allowed. I'm calling bullshit, these douchebags are regulating themselves out of jobs. Typical government clowns...
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You don't dare even sweat legs with DMSO now gary
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IMO, if the NYRB came up with a positive in March they should have acted then, instead of letting them build up. They might have prevented all the ones that followed.
A universal set of rules would make a trainer's life SO much easier.
Also, if they can a threshold on bute, lasix, Co2, etc. then they could set a threshold on other drugs. The testing equip now can find shit you took in grade school. The levels are so rediculously low that they couldn't possibly affect a horse's performance.
A guilty 'true doper' deserves anything he gets, but don't throw everyone into that one bag.
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Penalty in PA is typically two weeks.
Afrin IS a performance enhancer by increasing the ability to breathe. Shoudl it be illegal? Probably not. But it is. Is it on the level of epo or snake venom? Of course not. But, the NY Board is under ridiculous pressure due to the Pena situation -- they have not caught him yet (and I am not discussing his guilt or innocence). They need the positive PR and they caught these guys and now they have their clippings.
I see some familiar names on this list and would love to hear from any of their clients who are on this board.
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JS,
I agree universal rules would make a trainer's so much easier.
I wonder why it is the trainers' of both breeds who are always fighting against any change in the rules ?
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JS,
I agree universal rules would make a trainer's so much easier.
I wonder why it is the trainers' of both breeds who are always fighting against any change in the rules ?
None of the trainers I know are against universal rules. I think individual jurisdictions are the ones who don't want to give that authority to anybody else. Each juris. wants to be God of their own universe.
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Penalty in PA is typically two weeks.
Afrin IS a performance enhancer by increasing the ability to breathe. Shoudl it be illegal? Probably not. But it is. Is it on the level of epo or snake venom? Of course not. But, the NY Board is under ridiculous pressure due to the Pena situation -- they have not caught him yet (and I am not discussing his guilt or innocence). They need the positive PR and they caught these guys and now they have their clippings.
I see some familiar names on this list and would love to hear from any of their clients who are on this board.
Thank you
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None of the trainers I know are against universal rules. I think individual jurisdictions are the ones who don't want to give that authority to anybody else. Each juris. wants to be God of their own universe.
thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
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None of the trainers I know are against universal rules. I think individual jurisdictions are the ones who don't want to give that authority to anybody else. Each juris. wants to be God of their own universe.
thumbsup thumbsup
How the press perceives and leads with the story is usually how the public takes it...unfortunately thumbsdown
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Penalty in PA is typically two weeks.
Afrin IS a performance enhancer by increasing the ability to breathe. Shoudl it be illegal? Probably not. But it is. Is it on the level of epo or snake venom? Of course not. But, the NY Board is under ridiculous pressure due to the Pena situation -- they have not caught him yet (and I am not discussing his guilt or innocence). They need the positive PR and they caught these guys and now they have their clippings.
I see some familiar names on this list and would love to hear from any of their clients who are on this board.
"Performance enhancing" is a slippery slope..........some would say they feed a better combination of grain and supplements to enhance their horses performance............I think some "lazy" fellas taking a rain day might be considered "under performance enhancing"
Of course we want to enhance a horses performance by our training, feeding and veterinarian care methods........it's the drugs which elevate performance beyond it's ability with potential harm to the horse we need AND HAVE controlled.
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What is the class? 3? I can't find it.
Class IV.
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Class IV.
Thanks Wilderness........that makes me even sicker to my stomach.
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Of course not. But, the NY Board is under ridiculous pressure due to the Pena situation -- they have not caught him yet (and I am not discussing his guilt or innocence). They need the positive PR and they caught these guys and now they have their clippings.
Giss,
I'd bet my last dollar that Pena is small potatoes in this issue.
This recent NYRC is about "saving face and grabbing headlines".
I'm more inclined that this round of press releases is the NYRC's reason for these recent rulings (hope I've the date order correct)
Gural comments on New York State Senate Committee (http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=44792&zoneid=1)
Faraldo comments on racehorse (http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=44721&zoneid=1)
Gural replies Faraldo (http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=44792&zoneid=63)
Faraldo offers additional comments on drug testing (http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=44888&zoneid=63)
difference in drug testing between NY, PA (http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=45065&zoneid=63)
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IMO, if the NYRB came up with a positive in March they should have acted then, instead of letting them build up. They might have prevented all the ones that followed.
Just,
Indiana used this same accumulated method a year or two ago.
The Indiana Commission was dragged through the courts and there was a recent court ruling (and subsequent press release) that said it was OK to hold back the positives for months and let them accumulate prior to taking action.
I didn' save the link, however somebody else may find it on either the USTA or SC websites.
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This ARCI list of drugs is quite difficult to use.
There is NOT a master alphabetized list, rather to locate and alphabetical drug, you must search through each Class.
If your sure that you have the correct spelling of the drug, you may be able to use the PDF search option.
August 2011 Revised ARCI Drug Classes and Classifications. (http://arci.com/druglisting.pdf)
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Does or can this afrin stuff mask anything else ? Penalties seemed to be based on numbers of positives along with the particular trainer's past history...Far be it for me to say that Joe "the Kinife" Anderson has a long history of well let's say drug problems...
Does he get a pass here ? Is he one of the ones that is being defended in this thread ?
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None of the trainers I know are against universal rules. I think individual jurisdictions are the ones who don't want to give that authority to anybody else. Each juris. wants to be God of their own universe.
Just,
It simply comes to down to the dollar-revenue for the individual jurisdiction.
These jurisdictions will never give up those dollars up to comply with an across-the-board-policy of enforcement.
The simple awareness that horsemen are required to become aware of across multiple jurisdictions, opens the door for awareness of loop-holes.
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Does he get a pass here ? Is he one of the ones that is being defended in this thread ?
It's imperative that you don't misunderstand and misinterpret what is being presented here!
Nobody condones the cheaters!
Rather, what is being objected to is the witch-hunt and headlines for otherwise incidental infractions.
If these were Class I, II or III rulings there were NOT be any dispute, however these are Class IV penalties that have been over-penalized and sensationalized as something more dramatic.
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It's imperative that you don't misunderstand and misinterpret what is being presented here!
Nobody condones the cheaters!
Rather, what is being objected to is the witch-hunt and headlines for otherwise incidental infractions.
If these were Class I, II or III rulings there were NOT be any dispute, however these are Class IV penalties that have been over-penalized and sensationalized as something more dramatic.
thumbsup thumbsup
NaI........I think Anderson's name was thrown out there as an example.
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I think old Gary D is gonna have to fire up the pipe and contemplate this medication situation.. noway
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I've always had a Mom & Pop, mostly private stable. Very small potatoes. But it boggles my mind how huge operations like Erv Miller or Burkes can keep that many balls juggling in the air in all those different jurisdictions, with a different set of rules everytime you crosss a state line. I've been around Erv's stable and he'll have 175-200 head training and racing, and they're scattered all over the globe. What a logistics nightmare. Somehow he makes it work, and work very well.
All it takes is one new, inexperienced barn hand to get the trainer a positive. Then multiply that by 200 head. I'll guarantee you that trainers of big stables would LOVE to have 1 rule book to follow.
That being said; if a trainer is juicing to cheat me out of purse money with 'the hot stuff', burn him to the ground. But Afrin ain't EPO. Let the punishment fit the crime.
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Most blogs I belong to have been far more harsh in their judgement than folks around here.
One comment that is common is that the offenders didn't say "I didn't do it" they said "The penalty is too severe". This is taken as an admission of guilt. Maybe the penalties are severe, but you play with fire, you might get burnt.
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Most blogs I belong to have been far more harsh in their judgement than folks around here.
One comment that is common is that the offenders didn't say "I didn't do it" they said "The penalty is too severe". This is taken as an admission of guilt. Maybe the penalties are severe, but you play with fire, you might get burnt.
My follow up would be why is it always the same horsemen getting nailed...Don't See the Schnikters and Dohertys on any lists ???????
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My follow up would be why is it always the same horsemen getting nailed...Don't See the Schnikters and Dohertys on any lists ???????
DING DING DING DING
AND WE HAVE A WINNER !
bowdown bowdown bowdown
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A universal set of rules would make a trainer's life SO much easier.
I have been saying this for a loooooooooooooooooooong time
I have also said they should change the breaking rule too , if your horse is breaking an 1/8 th out before they say go , there should be a recall. before I take the heat for that let me remind you these races never go off on time anyway, Maywood is a 7:10 post and if they are off before 7:20 their lucky. It is like that at most tracks and every race because of the late money coming in.
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My follow up would be why is it always the same horsemen getting nailed...Don't See the Schnikters and Dohertys on any lists ???????
forgot to add Larry Remmen(sp) to that list...
Same suspects over and over again...
Insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
If Afrin is not beneficial, then why were the numbers( based on my calculations) 21 winners out of the batch of gentlemen suspended for varying degrees of time ??
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If Afrin is not beneficial, then why were the numbers( based on my calculations) 21 winners out of the batch of gentlemen suspended for varying degrees of time ??
The infractions were not for Afrin, however many have assumed that, based upon the Oxymetazoline being a by-product of Afrin-use (i. e., contamination.)
Schenectady, NY --- The New York State Racing and Wagering Board has issued fines and suspensions to 16 individuals who were found to be responsible for Oxymetazoline violations at Yonkers Raceway, Monticello Raceway and Saratoga Casino and Raceway.
end of quote
Across-the-counter Afrin manufactured within the US, does not contain Oxymethazoline.
Perhaps if somebody was dense enough to purchase Afrin from a dollar store (of which many frequently distribute medicinals that were not manufactured within the US (i. e., non-FDA approved)), could they possibly obtain a bottle that contained Oxymethazoline.
Within the US, Oxymethazoline requires a prescription (unless of course it was purchased illegally).
That Oxymethazoline requires a prescription within the US is the reason that these offenses were Class IV rulings (not lesser rulings).
If they were legitimately vet-prescribed, than all these horsemen had to do at the hearing is present their vet records, and less-severe penalty would likely have been imposed.
Many jurisdictions now require very accurate vet-records.
Despite the boundary-crossing of the Oxymethazoline-issue, these rulings were still Class IV, and otherwise minor-infractions. Hardly enough to hang people by the thumbs.
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My follow up would be why is it always the same horsemen getting nailed...Don't See the Schnikters and Dohertys on any lists ???????
Some horsemen (like much of the general public) are simply cheap-SOB's (there are many other words to describe bargain hunters).
Purchasing these medicinals and cheaper alternatives with the possibility of an infraction affecting your livelihood is pure foolishness.
Unfortunately, home-remedies and cheap alternatives (DMSO is prime example) have been a part of harness racing for more than a century.
Bacon grease, olive oil, and on and on. . . .
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The infractions were not for Afrin, however many have assumed that, based upon the Oxymetazoline being a by-product of Afrin-use (i. e., contamination.)
Schenectady, NY --- The New York State Racing and Wagering Board has issued fines and suspensions to 16 individuals who were found to be responsible for Oxymetazoline violations at Yonkers Raceway, Monticello Raceway and Saratoga Casino and Raceway.
end of quote
Across-the-counter Afrin manufactured within the US, does not contain Oxymethazoline.
Perhaps if somebody was dense enough to purchase Afrin from a dollar store (of which many frequently distribute medicinals that were not manufactured within the US (i. e., non-FDA approved)), could they possibly obtain a bottle that contained Oxymethazoline.
Within the US, Oxymethazoline requires a prescription (unless of course it was purchased illegally).
That Oxymethazoline requires a prescription within the US is the reason that these offenses were Class IV rulings (not lesser rulings).
If they were legitimately vet-prescribed, than all these horsemen had to do at the hearing is present their vet records, and less-severe penalty would likely have been imposed.
Many jurisdictions now require very accurate vet-records.
Despite the boundary-crossing of the Oxymethazoline-issue, these rulings were still Class IV, and otherwise minor-infractions. Hardly enough to hang people by the thumbs.
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don't have it in front of me, the Afrin that is, but last I checked,,,it is in fact an active ingredient in afrin.
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My follow up would be why is it always the same horsemen getting nailed...Don't See the Schnikters and Dohertys on any lists ???????
Don't recall the exact old-saying that I'm grasping my memory for (perhaps somebody may recall it?)
To paraphrase:
"If your pay wage is shit, than don't expect your employees to provide anything except shit for output."
Perhaps those bigger stables pay a fairer wage (and other fringes), while these frequently-infractioned-trainers are cutting corners by paying less?
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don't have it in front of me, the Afrin that is, but last I checked,,,it is in fact an active ingredient in afrin.
As I said previously, there is a considerable difference in the across-the-counter-Afrin as opposed to prescription-Afrin.
The FDA makes these rules.
That is why the across-the-counter are not as effective.
Skimping further to buy a $3 brand-name Afrin from a generic dollar store (with the possibility that the dollar Afrin would have been produced in a country NOT under the regulation of the FDA is another possibility).
Toothpaste and Fluoride content in dollar stores is a similar example. The toothpaste produced in 3rd world countries (not under the regulation of the FDA), may actually hurt people (especially children).
(3rd World countries add more Fluoride to their toothpaste because they don't have the Fluoride content of US water-cleaning-plants).
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and now they are trying to outlaw lasix , I have heard.... ::) :o
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Since the offical Welcomer of the Site is presently unavailable...
WELCOME SNOWFLAKE
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and now they are trying to outlaw lasix , I have heard.... ::) :o
Welcome snowflake. I guess some want Lasix banned because it may act as a masking agent for illegal drugs.
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Welcome snowflake. I guess some want Lasix banned because it may act as a masking agent for illegal drugs.
This is getting to be an old argument too.........very old and worn.
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This is getting to be an old argument too.........very old and worn.
Is there a new poster related to Old & Slow idunno
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Is there a new poster related to Old & Slow idunno
rflmao1
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I have been saying this for a loooooooooooooooooooong time
I have also said they should change the breaking rule too , if your horse is breaking an 1/8 th out before they say go , there should be a recall. before I take the heat for that let me remind you these races never go off on time anyway, Maywood is a 7:10 post and if they are off before 7:20 their lucky. It is like that at most tracks and every race because of the late money coming in.
Don't even need the recall, just put in the fair start pole just like they have in Canada and problem solved
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Always three sides to any story...
The sport is NOT as peachy keen as some would attempt to lead you to believe nor is the cheatin rampant as others believe, obviously the actual facts lie somewhere in between.....
So......like anything else....the sport must strive for Progress and not Perfection.
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thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
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Always three sides to any story...
The sport is NOT as peachy keen as some would attempt to lead you to believe nor is the cheatin rampant as others believe, obviously the actual facts lie somewhere in between.....
So......like anything else....the sport must strive for Progress and not Perfection.
well said thumbsup
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Don't even need the recall, just put in the fair start pole just like they have in Canada and problem solved
That should be the rule everywhere. People that make their bets more than a minute before the race goes off shouldn't be put at an unfair disadvantage against people that bet right before the race goes off.
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Don't even need the recall, just put in the fair start pole just like they have in Canada and problem solved
I know as a horseman that recalls will totally change the strategy of a race. Many very good & consistant race horses will swell-up behind the gate and get very 'game' right before the start. When the recall lights start flashing and you have to shut them down and regroup, they'll often 'wash-out' and come back to race like shit. So all the handicapping is a waste at that point.
Not sure how I feel about the fair-start pole. That's another angle for the capper to consider: If this SOB breaks alot before the start, do I want to bet him this time, or will he break and scramble my bet. And if he does, with the fair-start pole the money bet on him will be extracted from the pools for the winning bettors. Regardless, there's a reason it's called gambling.
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I hate the fair start pole. I've won a lot of money by not having recalls. People tend to forget the scores they make when they win due to no recall, but they never forget the money they lose when they think they've been screwed out of their money's worth.
With the fair start pole, I am unfairly taken advantage of by some rat being declared a non-starter, especially when that rat is the favorite. If I was smart enough to toss the horse because I figured he'd run, why penalize me? It gives everyone else a free shot that he will not make the fair start pole....and if he happens to not make a break, they get a second shot that the horse will win.
I'm far too conservative to like fair start poles...or government bailouts. idunno
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I am with pezz when it comes to the fair start pole.
I think it one of many things Canada does right.
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I hate the fair start pole. I've won a lot of money by not having recalls. People tend to forget the scores they make when they win due to no recall, but they never forget the money they lose when they think they've been screwed out of their money's worth.
With the fair start pole, I am unfairly taken advantage of by some rat being declared a non-starter, especially when that rat is the favorite. If I was smart enough to toss the horse because I figured he'd run, why penalize me? It gives everyone else a free shot that he will not make the fair start pole....and if he happens to not make a break, they get a second shot that the horse will win.
I'm far too conservative to like fair start poles...or government bailouts. idunno
You don't get it. With the fair start pole, if some rat ( and is not the favorite) does not make it to the fair start pole, the only horse it then affects is the favorite. If the "rat" is the favorite and you tossed him, well his money goes to the second fav which we all know you didn't bet either. rflmao1 As a multi race player that i am, it is pretty nice to have one of your horses that figured, then go on a break and still have a chance to make more money if he didn't make the pole cause if I have the fav and he wins, I now get it for more. Protect the player's or there is no more racing
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Bobby where we fail to agree here is that I am a traditionalist. With almost every single change they have made to racing, the handle has dropped more and more, i.e. the passing lane, the slow quarter rule, and many other dumbass changes they have made..
I say almost because taking the hubrail out was a safety issue that did not hurt the handle. I only wish once a horse breaks and goes inside the hubrail, that horse would be totally disqualified to last.
In any form of gambling, you pays your money and takes your chances. Let's get back to basics. I love 32 second second quarters if I bet the horse on top!!!
Contrary to what you think, I bet a lot of favorites if I think they should be bigger favorites. I hate betting Woodbine for that very reason-seeing my favorite overlay get crushed because some dumbass horse can't make the fair start pole.
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Gotcha
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the way most of my horses pace/trot, seems as if I never get a fair start... idunno idunno shootme shootme rflmao1 rflmao1